Notebook please

a decent notebook is a boon, please can we have one??

please, please???

It will likely require more than just a text notebook. I use an Excel Spreadsheet to track nearly everything from Missions, Ores, Crafting requirements, Harvesting resources, and Trade Goods. The spreadsheet allows me to make calculations for Crafting costs, Ore values, Store profits, and to sort for Trade Routes.

Sure, but why re-invent the wheel ?

EverNote Basic is free, and is far more powerful and capable than an in-game notebook cobbled together would be.

It is available for just about any device you have, and did I mention it is free ?

Oh now this one is tricky for many reasons, just to name a few:

  • refined resources can be won from different ore types at different cpu -> best source has to be determined based on your refining skills
  • refining typically yields more than one derivative, meaning cpu of each derivative is only partial cost of required ore, not 100%
  • refining cost… harvesting base on type of harvester… market price…

Getting it done in Excel is possible of course, but it felt like cost vs. benefit was at the level of building a computer in Minecraft - rather a kind of art than tool :smile: So I’ve given it up at some point and did it in a different way, ugly but effective:

What I miss most, is list of components in Crafting Database :pensive: But, on the other hand, each new schematic is always a surprise :slight_smile:

1 Like

I think we hijacked this thread… but I took a simpler approach to calculating costs. I didn’t account for the GMB value of ore. Since I use what I mine myself, I assumed that value was zero.

I take the cost of refining, divided by the total yield, to come up with an average cost. So as my refining level increases, my yield improves, and my cost per refined ore goes down. Then I average the cost of each refined ore type, (Rawk, Pryavlon, etc), across each raw ore type, (Hikarite, Thracium, etc.), and weight it based on how many batches of it I have refined.

As an example, my average cost per Rawk is currently 5.23 credits.

Ahoi! Well, the original question was answered, so why not? glance over to banhammer :smile:

Hm, I guess both variants are valid and it depends on what you want to know. In your case it’s “what do I have to invest to get it crafted”. In my case “what is the market value / price I have to ask for”.

I also use everything I mine and refine myself (at least for now) - and yes, ore is kind of “free”. But it still has some value: If I do something with that “free” ore and am going to sell it at an emporium, I don’t want to only charge for the work done, but also for the materials (in fact, it did cost me fuel^^). Therefore I’ve set up some average emporium/GBM value for ores and everything else gets derived from that. Harvested resources are another example: they have no production cost, only ore cost (aside from getting a harvester). But their value is obviously not zero.

Hm now that’s a good point, actually. As a realistic situation is never “all materials from 0 to required amount using only best sources”. But it’s also true that averaging doesn’t work without weighing - and for that I’d have to keep track of what I have and from what source… too lazy for that :slight_smile:

Cost of fuel… indeed.
My Not So Advanced Hauler Toon have ship with 100 freight capacity. And can use lvl 2 Civilian Laser, average 5 ore per shot. Filled with Dumont +12% it makes 190 cr per unit of fuel (more or less, depending on distnace). So one unit of ore cost approx 38 cr.
My miner toon fly still in Marauder, cargo 30, and mine with DC Odin, Average 10,5 ore per shot. so it makes 50 cr per unit of fuel with Dumont, so one ore cost 5 cr, approx. Regardless of ore type :smile:

Very… interesting calculation! :slight_smile: Though I fail to understand how Dumont rates are linked to value of ores. I mean, yes, if you mine with a civ laser instead of hauling… with a hauler toon… then you produce a very expensive ore :yum: Well of course your ore gains per unit of fuel scale with tier of your mining laser!

But as capitalist you should really look at it from a different angle: It is not the ore that gets cheaper as you upgrade your equipment and skills. Well, it gets cheaper for you personally. But globally, each ore has a market price/value based on it’s specific supply and demand :wink: So if you manage to mine more ore using same amount of fuel, the mining gets cheaper only for you (!) - in terms of whatever non-monetary value fuel is assigned.

That is, you get more ore per fuel and could sell more ore on the market - for the same price - getting more credits for the fuel you’ve burned mining. And NOT the same amount or ore for a lower price, just because you mine more effectively, right? :smile: I mean, you surely would not drop your price just because you mine more. You do indeed get a competitive advantage using a better laser, so theoretically you could afford lower selling price - but why should you unless you’re trying to beat competitors?

EDIT: I was only saying that ore is not free, as you spend fuel (and time). But as you see it’s very difficult to determine a reasonable “fuel value” in credits. Good new: Buyers on GBM/emporiums do not care about fuel value anyway. It’s really just supply and demand resulting in a price. Obviously, it’s more profitable to mine more expensive ores with better lasers - while burning same amount of fuel.

[quote=“DeepOne, post:8, topic:517”]
Very… interesting calculation! :smile: Though I fail to understand how Dumont rates are linked to value of ores. [/quote]

Dumont pays you 1.8 cr for transport 1 unit of cargo for 1 unit of distance. Plus bonus for skill (2% for each level, max 14%, I guess), minus fuel spent for in-system flight (planet to Wormhole and back), real value, for max skill, is 1.45 to 1.95 cr ( for distance 5 and 40, respectively). It is true FOR ALL players wit DUMONT SKILL LVL 8.
Multiple it by Freight Hold size, and you have Profit Toon can get. Assume my Cargo hold is 100, it is 145 to 195 cr per unit of fuel FOR MY HAULER toon.
From the mining point of view, one laser shot costs 1 unit of fuel. I assume avarage loot is (min + max damage) / 2. So for Civilian Mining Laser avg Loot is 5. So if I sell for 39 I’ll make same amount of cr , per unit of fuel, as hauler WITH FREIGHT BAY = 100.

But as capitalist you should really look at it from a different angle: It is not the ore that gets cheaper as you upgrade your equipment and skills. Well, it gets cheaper for you personally. But globally, each ore has a market price/value based on it’s specific supply and demand

As Capitalist, I’m interested in both values :slight_smile: I have to know values for ME. Then I compare with market value, If former is lower, I’ll mine and sell. If it is higher, I’ll buy from GBM (when I need given resource).

It wasn’t the calculation that I did not understand. But this:

  1. In most cases there is no need to do all the “per fuel” math, actually. It can be interesting to you in order to decide what to do, but it 99% of cases it is already determined by your skills and equipment.

If you have a hauler toon with bad mining skills and tools, the ore it mines will be very expensive FOR YOU! That is, compared to what you’d earn with hauling for the same amount of fuel! But it’s NOT the value of ore to the MARKET that is high. No. It’s the hauling profit you “LOSE” or call it “exchange” for getting 1 unit of ore. The point here is, it’s out of question that you won’t be able to sell Kelsalt for 39 cpu. :slight_smile: Maybe a rare ore… Anyway, what can we learn from this? That you shouldn’t mine with a bad miner? Well, what a turn.

If you have a miner toon with high skills and nice toys, but small freight bay: well, let’s guess it. The mining output will be great… Dumont gains will be low! Hm. Mine with miner, haul with hauler…? Surprise! But above calculation, with 5cr/ore for the miner is wrong way to determine ore VALUE. Again, it’s your personal (!) trade-off between high quality mining and bad hauling. Let’s assume it is 5 cr/ore as above. Class 1 ores go for 3-4 cr on GBM. So what? Would you start hauling with your miner because of that? Or would you switch to higher class ores?

  1. The problem with Dumont being the etalon of fuel value is not only that it isn’t connected to the actual market value of ore in any way. Really, people will pay more for your ore if they need it urgently and supplies are low. They won’t be interested in what you’d get from Dumont if you’d haul instead. There is another, quite malicious flaw: Tier 2 mining chassis doesn’t have a freight bay :wink:

Sure, just saying it’s strange to base it on a comparison with something that isn’t an alternative for a miner having anything but a civ laser.

Let’s assume I’m a programmer, producing lines of code, 100/hour.
Alternatively I could try doing something I have no idea of, e.g. building a house.
As I’m bad architect and builder, It would take me a year and be only worth $1,000 on market.
According to your logic I could now say:
"$1,000 / 52 weeks / 5 days / 8 hours = 48 cents / hour if building.
Then one line of code is worth half a cent!"

Do you see a flaw in that? Why the heck should the value of my code be determined by something very different, especially something I’m poor at?

1 Like

Interesting discussion. :smile:

Without realizing exactly why at the time, I think you’ve answered why I chose to ignore the value of fuel in my calculations for the value of ores. If I had to pay for fuel, and it became an expense I could quantify, then I would include it.

I also ignored current market value, because I wanted to know what my cost was. As was pointed out, the market value only tells me if I would be better off buying it, or if there is continued value in getting it myself.

There are clearly other factors that ‘could’ be considered, like the cost of my skills, and the cost of my mining lasers. But I figured the costs to become an effective miner, couldn’t easily be quantified to where I could divide it into how much ore I would get over several years of digging.

My calculated costs gives me an idea of what it cost me in credits to refine ores, and gives me a base cost for crafting items. Then I can calculate if it’s smarter for me to buy an upgrade component, or craft it myself. It appears that currently I can craft most items for roughly half the market value.

The discussion about Haulers making more money is another topic for another thread. But my Hauler pays the bills, so I don’t want to offend him. :wink:

Note: You should assume $1.000 is your profit, not value, and your coding is expense free.
Correct. So If someone offers you cent for 4 lines of code, you should choose hammer, If cent for line, choose keyboard.
Problem is how to compare two different activities, and how to choose more profitable one. I have to set one value (Dumont payment, or profit from house in your example), Then ask The Question “How should I price my second Activity (Mining for my toon or Coding in your example) to get equal profit?”. If I can get more than that I should choose Second activity.

@Tom_Paris I don’t want to offend your hauler, but my Toons make more profit from trading than hauling :smile:

Yes, that’s exactly the point - comparing different activities and deciding what is more profitable for you. In this case the calculation via fuel as common expendable is perfectly valid. Though as you specialize in one profession more and more, comparing gets unnecessary, as higher efficiency (skills, tools etc.) win in every profession. In theory, it can of course happen, that something happens globally: Too many miners, ore overproduction, Kelsalt price drops to 1 cr. Then you do the math and decide to haul / day-trade with your miner instead. But what would be the indicator for such changes? Global market price / emporiums / GBM. Exactly that is the point. It is central, not your trade-off.

This formulation is correct too. You can find out how much you would have to sell the ore for in order to get more creds for your fuel than from hauling. You can compare that value to the current market price (yep, again^^) and decide what you do. But it’s your personal cost/value trade-off, not mine, not Tom’s. After all, if we talk about selling resources or crafting, it the market value we’re basing our selling price on. If some crafting components are cheaper in emporiums, you buy them instead of producing them yourself. And other way round of course.

The point where we’re obviously talking about different things is: Your (perfectly valid) personal trade-off does not influence the market value of ore (what it’s worth to other players), at least not directly. In the above example I do not dictate the price for a line of code. There is an average well-established market value for it. And even if I try hard to build the worst house ever, it won’t change the value of my code to market :wink: That is, you can of course compare different activities with each other, but not with the global market - in good approximation it does not care what any of us personally does :yum:

Collective effects do influence the market prices over time of course, e.g. overproduction, value drops, miners all switch to day trading etc. but that’s a different story. And again, what you’d notice first is - average market price changes.